E26: Marriage as Sacrament: A Path to Holiness (with Al & DeeAnna Wathen)

Why does the Church call marriage a Sacrament and not just a commitment?

What does it mean to rely on the grace of the Sacrament when the burdens of life feel impossible to bear?

How can married love become a path to holiness and a gift not only to one another, but to children, grandchildren, and the wider community?

Tune into this episode of Catholicism 101 as we sit down with Al and DeeAnna Wathen to reflect on marriage as a Sacrament of grace, service, and life-giving love, as well as wisdom for those discerning or preparing for marriage.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hi friends, welcome back to another episode of Catholicism 101, Forever Learning and Living the Faith. Today, I have Al and Deanna Watham with me because we are talking about the sacrament of marriage. And today, this is more so just a conversation about how marriage is a path to holiness. So in order to learn about that, we gotta first meet Al and who are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:34

Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Well, um, I grew up in Fordsville, and um I moved to Whitesville when I was in my high school years, and I met Al around that time. Um we actually met at youth group, so that might be a story in this podcast, maybe not. Uh, but God brought us together, and um, we've been married 27 years now, and we have four children that are now adults and starting their own families, and so it's been pretty great.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

Three grandbabies.

SPEAKER_01 1:10

Three grandbabies, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

Does that include the one on the way? Yes. Every time I see her, I just get so excited. And I'm sure that doesn't compare to y'all's. Um so you know, I I sent you all some questions and some things to reflect on as we prepare for today. Um, and so I just kind of I wanted to kind of give you a bit of free range of um as you all were talking and praying and getting ready for this, um, and you think about marriage as a vocation and a path to holiness, your path to heaven. Um what is maybe the first thing that stands out to you?

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Well, for me, it's the uh relationship or the how closely our marriage reflects the church and how selfless Jesus was in in the beginning of it and what he sacrificed for us and for the church and kind of the what it reflects into my role as a partner with Deanna in our marriage and towards our children and for our grandchildren, you know, and what's our overall goal.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

I would agree with that. Um very sacrificial, and that is the role um that Jesus plays. So I think that's a great thing. You're you don't ever really think about yourself in marriage, even when you do, it's always in the context of your husband or your family in general, the whole family unit, every decision that you make, every, you know, if you want to go somewhere or you want to buy something or you wanna learn something new, it's always in the context of how it's gonna affect each person in the unit. So you're not really like the sole island, you're always together, even in your thoughts. So that's kind of a big part of it.

SPEAKER_00 3:10

Yeah. And then how I mean our actions as the parents. We we always try to come out in that, you know, unified voice and you know, always was Christ-centered and knew that we were raising our children to be adults. No, we weren't raising children, we were raising adults, and we tried to give them that the benefit of teaching them how to be adults. And then when you're doing that, you have to act. Because if you tell somebody and don't do it yourself, it's empty words. So if we wanted them to go to church every Saturday or Sunday, we had to make sure we went to church every Saturday or Sunday. If we you know, they we want them to have a stronger faith. We had to have strong faith. We wanted them to love people, we had to love each other. So it was never it was always that bigger picture of you had to be what you wanted your children to become and to be.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

I always tell people that's the hardest thing about being a parent, actually, is becoming what you want your kids to be. And so when you're young, you have all these ideas. But you know right and wrong. And so you're constantly trying to do what's right. And as they get older and older, you know, you're their model and that's who they're watching. And when they're little, you can get away with a few things, you know, still sneak some things in, they're like, I know I really shouldn't be doing this, but they can't really see it. But um they I mean, children I feel like really hold you accountable. Yeah. Because that's a big responsibility. And so you're not just thinking about yourself, you're thinking about them all the time. And yeah, and you really have to model it.

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Yeah. The slip up of a bad word, and the next thing you know, they say just like, mm, yeah, I did that. Yes. That was my bad.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

Yes. Yes. Yeah. That's that's that's incredible. And I'm so glad to hear you all say that. Um, there's two points, like at my job, I have the privilege of meeting with new parents for baptism. And and they got parents. And so I always, whenever I meet them, I always try to send them out with a challenge of like, hey, I know that they're like what, two months old right now, and they don't know whether or not you're going to mass. And quite frankly, they're not gonna care right now. But here's the thing: whenever they start like noticing this, and it's earlier than you would think it is, you want to have that habit built up. Yeah, um, it's like, hey, start right now. Here's a checkpoint of like, let's do a quick trip in. Um, is this the kind of parent I want to be? Is this the kind of god parent I want to be?

SPEAKER_03 5:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Um makes makes you think of ch children in mass.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Yes. Yeah. Because I mean, me hearing kids scream in mass makes me happy.

SPEAKER_03 6:03

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

I mean, it's a pleasure just because and I know the parents are like, oh, I'm gonna beat my kids, or you know, it's so embarrassing, or they feel like their kids are taking stuff away from other people from mass, but it's really not. I'm gonna, you know, from my point, and from I'm gonna say majority of parents, they they smile and go, They're doing good, you know. I remember when my kids were that way. And you know, just the youth that you know, the joy of just the kids, it's great. It's infectious.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Yeah, and I would encourage parents to hang in there and keep coming. Don't feel like your kids are terrible and you need to stay home or you need to leave your kids with somebody else while you go to a mass. Um, you know, when you do it every week, that's how they learn. And once you teach that older one, the older one helps the younger ones figure it out. And before you know it, they're they're all being pretty good at at mass. But it is a process sometimes.

SPEAKER_02 7:03

Oh yeah.

unknown 7:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

I'd rather a kid be happy to be there and having fun, even if they're playing with maybe a little truck in them than be scared to go to.

SPEAKER_03 7:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Um and I would encourage pointing things out in the church and talking about things in the mass. Yeah. Sitting in the front. We used to sit in the very front pew most of the time because we were late. And that was the only pew that was open, but it was a benefit to be right in the front. You don't have all that distraction in front of you. You're just focused on the mass. And so it's a good opportunity to point things out to kids. They can't see anything if they're in the bag, they just see the people in front of them.

SPEAKER_00 7:42

Remember the kids' view.

SPEAKER_01 7:43

Yeah. Yeah. What they're seeing.

SPEAKER_00 7:45

What they're seeing. It's nothing. Or people's butts. So yeah. So set them up front so they can see what's going on, you know. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Oh, that's awesome. Um, so I kind of wanted to go back. You all have been married 27 years.

SPEAKER_00 8:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

I'm sure it's been all butterflies and rainbows, right?

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Um there, of course, it kind of goes without saying there are really difficult times. Um, and I just I wanted to ask you all, and this is kind of something I prepped for you a little bit too, of whenever those times come, and um when when family when life is a little bit too heavy to bear sometimes, and you you just don't really, you feel like you don't have the strength, um, particularly like in a marriage, when when things get really hard. Um that's that's one of the beautiful reasons that Jesus elevated marriage to a sacrament, right? So it can be an occasion of grace. And so I wanted um to ask you all, you know, in reflecting on some of those times where it's been rough and tough, um, how have you found yourselves like relying on the grace of your sacrament? Um, and what kind of fruit did you take from that?

SPEAKER_01 9:07

I would say um for a long time I felt like I was in the honeymoon stage. You know, people talk about that, the honeymoon stage. And some people act like it it doesn't last very long. For me, it lasted a long time with my relationship with Al, the way I loved him, I feel like. And um we didn't really fight in the beginning. Well, we we don't really fight. Uh that doesn't mean it's always great. But but we didn't really fight a lot. And um, as we started having kids, it was hard because we had four kids pretty quickly. And some of our biggest challenges were financial challenges and then just the daily challenge of raising the family. And you know, it's so exhausting when they're small and they rely on you for everything. And so those were some of the big ones at first. I felt like our relationship was strong, but the day-to-day was really hard. Um, to give a few examples, we did talk about uh a couple of things beforehand when we were trying to think about some hard times. And financially, we were we were in hard times a few times where it was like, what what bills are we gonna pay?

SPEAKER_00 10:17

Which bill will shut us off?

SPEAKER_01 10:18

We can yeah, we can we can't afford all of them. We can afford most of them, but not one. So which one doesn't need to be this month that we don't pay? That's gonna be next month we pay or something, you know. So we would have those conversations sometimes, and the money was pretty tight. And uh I remember one time specifically we had um we were really in a a pinch. We weren't gonna be able to pay something we needed to pay. And I went to the mailbox and uh I got a there was a check in the mail and it was $500. And we're like, what? What is this? And so we open it, you know. I read the letter, and it was from an insurance claim where Al had been rear-ended like four years earlier, and the person didn't have insurance, and so our insurance had to pay for it, and we had to pay the deductible, which was $500. Well, they finally got their money back and sent us a $500 check. But it was completely out of the blue. And it made us realize, yes, it was right at a time when we were really needing it, and it was like God really is taking care of us, you know. Like you try to be responsible, you try to do what you need to do, but then those little times, He just lets you know that I'm right here, I'm helping you out, you're not by yourself, you know.

SPEAKER_00 11:34

And we tried to always tithe.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_00 11:38

And most of the time it was out of the firsts, it wasn't out of the seconds. It was just like, uh, you know, let's write that check and then we'll write the rest. I think that was some of that grace of the hardship up front and that blessing that the fruits that came from that. Which I really when we were struggling, like eat just talking to each other or with the kids, the the grace comes back. It's like you it it just pops up when you need it. And then it becomes easier and easier. I mean to be able to to uh when you see the fruits of that, it's easier to rely on that. And that's what God wants. I mean, he wants us to rely on him. You know. Like a parent's love, you know, it never runs out. He's just wanting you to, you know, show him a little love and he, you know, he'll color you up and love you right back.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

Yeah. We uh and the hard part is that first step though, like with uh like with the giving. I can remember when we first decided, okay, we just need to do this, and it was really hard to write out that check in the beginning. Yeah. But it gets so much easier because you do put the trust in and he doesn't let you down. You know, even when it's tight, he doesn't let you down. You need to write first through.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

You know, writing that check out of the you know, less like the first check you write, it's like I know I got the the water and the electric, but the first check is the tithe. And then you start going through the rest. And somehow there's enough zeros there. Okay, that worked out. Uh but I mean when we And that's one of our blessings is me and Dan is I married my best friend. And what came with that is the ability to appreciate and talk to where I mean people, you know, I ain't no way you never fought. Well, we really didn't. Because anything that was emotional, we could sit down and have a conversation about it and talk about it, and you know, talk to your friend like you do friends, you talk. You know, and even if it's sometimes it's a hard thing to say, it's it's easier to say to your friend. You know. So it was easier for us to not fight. You know, doesn't mean we never got mad at each other. Doesn't mean I didn't do stuff stupid, which I know I did. But it you know, with that knowing it's your friend at first and having that friendship and that relationship, and then it came became something else, you know, developed or became a love, you know. It was it was being married to Deanna has been easy, which is a blessing.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Thanks. Oh sweet.

SPEAKER_02 14:36

Oh my goodness. Um yeah, this is this is this is so beautiful. I'm I'm having this problem sitting over here and watching y'all can just beam.

SPEAKER_00 14:50

Just like that, you know. We we talk about you know how you know, just holding hands and being close, and you know, uh we talk about having a full-size bed when you first get married. We had a full-size bed for 20 years.

SPEAKER_01 15:03

Yeah, we've only just recently switched, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:06

To a queen.

SPEAKER_01 15:06

Mm-hmm. But we have a whole philosophy behind that. This is one of our pointers. We were gonna save this for the end of the conversation. But it's a good place. It's a good place, yeah. Yeah. Um if you have a small bed, then you're close. You're close together. You have to touch each other. You can't just turn over and never touch the other person.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

And you can't stay mad at someone else.

SPEAKER_01 15:28

I can't stay mad. That's right. If you're upset when you go to bed and you try to stay on your side, you know, because you're just mad at the other person. Uh you can't help it. Eventually you're gonna touch each other, whether it's a foot or something. And then it just, I don't know, physical touch just kind of melts away some of that anger, even when you're not really wanting to. And I don't know. We just think it's a great um practice. It's a great practice, and it keeps you closer. Full size bed.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Full size bed. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 16:06

That's right. That's right. You have to scoot over there with them.

SPEAKER_00 16:10

We were always lucky. Deanna was always cold and I was always hot.

SPEAKER_01 16:12

So Yeah, yeah, that's true.

SPEAKER_00 16:14

She would snuggle up to me, and I took my leg out from her.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Not so much anymore, though. So now I now I get hot, have the hot flashes.

SPEAKER_02 16:23

Um, so I I'm hearing bits of um like there are challenges and like they they always end up for the better, right? And you you take away, like, especially with tithing and finances, it's like you you trust the Lord with what little you have. Um, and I always have I always have this philosophy of like, Lord, if I give you what I have, I know, and I like have this expectant prayer that you will give me at least double in return, whatever that looks like. Um, and I've never had just a random check show up in the mail, or maybe I have one, maybe like seven bucks. But that's pretty awesome. I might start praying for that.

SPEAKER_01 17:01

Well, that's the funny thing about God. You know, we have our expectation and we we pray for the things we want. They're not usually the things that he wants. Yeah, and so we have to just trust that he does know because he's gonna give us what we need. And the way he's gonna answer your prayer is probably not the way you're yeah, it usually never is, but it's usually the better way, and you see that later. You just can't see it in the moment.

SPEAKER_02 17:27

Oh man. Um, so through all of these things and going through these things together, um, because like yes, you you are one, right? As a people, you are one, you are unit. Um, but at the same time, you know, you're you're still your own individual person. And so whenever you think about um your vocation and you kind of uh think about like the state of your own soul and the state of your own holiness, like obviously, yes, it is linked. Um, but how have you like personally, Deanna, how have you personally out like seen and experienced growth and holiness just by your sacrament?

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Well, one of the ways um for me when I was kind of trying to reflect on this a little bit is it's really hard to think all the way back to the beginning of 27 years, you know, because you have growth the whole 27 years. And um one thing that I know now is that I really appreciate the differences in men and women. And um, when you first get married, you have your ideas of the roles that you think you're gonna play, and you might even talk about them, you know, in your marriage preparation, and you know, what am I gonna do? I was mostly gonna take care of the children, and that was really was my focus. And Al supported us, and that was really his focus. And we came together, we worked together, but then at different times in our marriage, things would change and we'd have a little bit of role reversal. And um, one example that I can give is uh let's say I had a hard day at home, the kids were crazy, but somehow I held it together, took care of them all, kept them all fed, kept their diapers changed, you know, all the things. And then I managed to make this big dinner that was gonna be great for my husband. You know, I was really killing it today. And um, then it's time for him to get home and he's late. So that would upset me because I sacrificed, I worked so hard and I was trying to do something really nice for him. And then he comes home late for whatever reason, he had to make a stop or do something, and but it was like a disappointment to me because he didn't so then I would get upset a little bit. By the time he got home, it's not the same, you know. And then uh later in life, whenever things were different, say I was working, I went to work um a little bit later when my kids got a little older. And um then we might have a role reversal where Al made dinner, you know. I worked all day at school or something, I come home and there's this dinner on the table, it's all sitting there, it's all out, you know, everybody's waiting on mom. And I just see this, I have this appreciation, you know, it's not like I was trying to be late or I was doing anything I shouldn't have been doing. And it just kind of helps you see the other person's point of view and appreciate them, and um, you know, being in those different roles. And so that's just one little ex example of kind of like a swapping of roles. And um, we've done that a lot in a lot of different situations over the years, and now just the differences in men and women I really appreciate and I notice them more and more and more. And I'm just like, he's just different in that way, and that's good, and I'm different because I'm a woman and that's good, and you know, we really compliment each other, and I just notice that a whole lot more now than I did then. It would be like, I wish he would be more like me, or why doesn't he just do this because I want him to, you know, and and now it's like you don't know, you just grow into that more and more as you get older.

SPEAKER_02 21:19

I don't remember what your original question was, but um how how how have you seen yourself like grow in holiness?

SPEAKER_01 21:28

Yes. So for me, the that's where I was going with just the differences in men and women. To me, that is growing in holiness because we are made in the image of God. And it's like man and woman together fully represents his image. And so my roles, who I am as a woman, and then recognizing who Al is as a man, we do complement each other very well and come together, and it it just it represents God even more, you know, the image of God. And so it's nice to see that more. And more and more as I get more into our marriage.

SPEAKER_00 22:03

And for me, I mean, just me being able to I mean, really go to work. And for at times, I mean I've hated my job. Uh when we first got married, I I didn't work as a fireman. But I got to go to work and come home to Deanna and to the kids. And it was like that was the fruits of my labor. You know, it had nothing to do with what I did. But it had everything to do with what I you know, the grace, the the gifts I were g I was given, you know, to get to go to work and get, you know, be healthy enough to be able to do that stuff. And know that I could take care of them, and knowing that Deanna was there and raising, you know.

SPEAKER_03 22:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

It's like I never had to second guess that my kids were being taken care of or that she wasn't being taken care of. You know, she was she she's a great partner and she's always been able to, you know, she always amazes me on how she could, you know, do do that, take care of four kids, four kids less than five years is how you know. So we had three kids and diapers in one shot, or two kids and diapers for four years. And I come home and there's supper on the table. And it's just like, wow, I expect peanut butter sandwiches tonight, you know. And would have been happy, well, not peanut Deanna hates peanut butter, but but you know, just to be able to come home and witness that and you know, me getting to go to work and her, you know, it was a difficult time, you know, for just us to go, you know, everybody you know talks about, you know, uh, we have to have two incomes. And you might. I mean, I don't know the you know your path, but I can say from our point, her being home with our kids and seeing the people that they have become and are becoming, it it it it was the right for us. It it was a great blessing. And I that's you know, see, God's love is really I can sit back now and look and go, wow, we you know, that's what it is. That's that was it. You know, all those struggles and figuring out what bills. And about four years into our marriage, I changed careers and become a fireman. And that was a change, and you know, just the way life and God has opened up the doors and the paths, and you know, he blessed me with the ability to do something that I do love now. You know, it's just kind of like, oh, okay. It was still a struggle. I got to do what I loved, but it didn't pay much. But, you know, every time, you know, realistically, the the pay wasn't the goal. You know, the the family dynamics and you know, Deanna being able to do what she did with the little bit of money that we brought, you know, that we earned. You know, that's the amazing things and the amazing meals, and she's a great cook. And you know, it's it was a big blessing. And now looking back or looking at our kids now and looking at our future and our grandbabies, and it's amazing to see that full circle of life and the blessing. You know, when you're going through it, it's you're not thinking, I wasn't thinking, you know, oh, this is a God bless, this is a blessing. I always knew God was always center and always, you know, have faith. You know, I had faith by, you know, just knowing I just knew God was going to take care of me. I knew he was there. But now to look back to see how much his hand was in in that pot, you know, how involved he was that you never see. You know, and that's the blessings that I get to see now from our marriage.

SPEAKER_01 25:48

And yeah, I just listen to you talk makes me think about my vocation as a mother. You know, that was that was my career. And anything that I've ever done, just like I I do teach. I teach halftime at Trinity. That's always just been a ministry that I do. You know, that's not who I am. It's not my career. I'm a mother, and that has been my career. That's my vocation. That's that's everything that I all my life was tied up into nurturing these kids and trying to do the best for them. And every decision was trying to grow them into good people and you know, mentor them and model for them and teach them. And and yeah, like he was saying, now that they're adults, it's just it's so rewarding to see the people that they are. And it's like, wow, I had a hand in that, you know. Uh I helped out with that, and I was so happy to be that instrument, really. And and it's beautiful, you know, to know that that you're part of shaping and molding and and and they're beautiful people.

SPEAKER_00 26:58

And see God's plan like come to fruition.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

That part of it. Yes. You know, it's kind of like, mm, okay, there it is. There's the fruits.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

And now we're at that transition stage, you know, our our kids are adults, they're starting their own families, and like you said, it's kind of coming full circle. And so now we're we're entering into new roles, and we're still, you know, that's our vocation to kind of be the mother and father of the family, but the family is branching out and and we're grandparents, and they're gonna go through that whole cycle, and so we just have a different role now, so it's exciting.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

And we have new daughters and new sons.

SPEAKER_01 27:39

Yeah, you know, yeah, that's true. Bigger, bigger family, yeah, as they get married. Because you you bring them right in under your wing, and you're like, okay, I haven't known this person from birth, like I do my own children, but my kid loves them, and I'm gonna love them to the best of my ability, just like they're my own, you know. And so then you have to learn about them and who they are and what they need. That's what as a mom, you're always trying to figure out what are your kids' needs, how can I serve them best, and so it's kind of the same, it's kind of the same as they get married. You know, you have new people coming in and you're trying to figure out the needs.

SPEAKER_00 28:24

And I think that's I mean, Dean's a great teacher, and I think that's part of that is because sh of the motherly, she loves those kids and she always expects the best out of them. It's just that godly love.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

I do see them all as gifts, yeah. And you're gonna be able to do it. The gift of life and I always see the good in them. That's true.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

We like to talk too about like um how parents have that great honor of being like co-creators with God, right? And I think sometimes we forget um about the education part because it's like we learn who we are by learning about Christ. You know, uh John Paul II, one of his absolute favorite things that he wrote in God you meant space, all that was Christ fully reveals man to himself. So like I always talk about how um I can only know who I am if I'm looking at Jesus, like he teaches me about myself. Um and so just the the fact of like as a parent, you're not only co-creating, but you're also like co-educating with God. Um and just what a great privilege that it is. Um, and just hearing you all talk about how um you've seen God's plan like unfold in your kids' lives, um, and just the excitement of that's gonna start happening with grandkids more and more. Um so I kind of want to widen that perspective a little bit too uh to the community. Um how how have you all uh and don't don't feel like you're bragging on yourself here because like I want you to? Um asking is how have you all seen um your marriage be a gift to not only like your immediate families, um or even your extended families, which around here is kind of everyone.

SPEAKER_03 30:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

Um how have you seen your marriage being a gift to the community and like yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

You want me to start? Okay. Um I will say when I first started teaching at Trinity, I was um, how do I say this? I guess if Al would come to see me and he would want to kiss me goodbye, I'd be like, not in front of the kids. You know, like I was always like No PDA. Yeah, no PDA. That's right. That's what we learned in a in the school public display of affection. You know, you don't do that. Um but then as as I taught for a little while, one of the other teachers one time told me that they thought it was so great that the students got to see our marriage as a model, a good model of marriage. And the more I thought about what she said, we had a conversation about it a little bit, but then I realized they do need to see good holy examples of marriage. And it's okay to kiss your husband, you know. And so I became a little bit more open to that. And it was it was more about the rules, you know, at first of like what they needed to see or follow. And then it was like, it's okay to see a married couple actually love each other and give signs of affection for one another. And so uh I was more open to that after that. But but we have been able to talk about our marriage on retreats. Um, we've shared with students before. Oftentimes the students will make comments about how cute we are or something, and I'm like, that's their that's their way of saying, you are a good role model, or you do show us something good about marriage. And the world is always trying to knock marriage down. And so I feel like just showing an example of we do actually love each other, we're still in love with each other, just holding hands in the pew at church or something like that. It's like it's okay to show that we love each other. We should love each other, and that's a good thing. That's what God wants. And so um that's one example just in the community with the students and just at mass, you know. You don't want to look at a married couple that just looks grumpy all the time and they don't, you know, they don't even look at each other nice. And it's like I feel like we we do love each other and we show that just in our looks and our mannerisms whenever we're in the community too.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Shut open door for you. Show you.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Yes, he opens the door for me. Other people see that.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

I've had several people stop and like road down the window and like, you're gonna get me in trouble if my wife sees that, and you know, I'm just like, well, the door for her. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Being that role model. Yeah, people need to see those things, and and then it gets they get reminded to do them too, you know.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

And it's easy to do the right thing when you see people doing the right things.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Yeah. It gives you the courage to do that.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

Give you the courage.

SPEAKER_01 33:25

Mm-hmm. Yes. So that's one example. Um, we also mentor engaged couples. So we've been doing that for a little while. I could tell before we had that program here with Father Brian, um early on in our marriage, I think when Father Ken was here, I I remember talking to him one time and just saying, I feel like Al and I have really something special in our marriage and we just need to share that with somebody. Like, I don't know what we need to do, but we just need to share that. And um and then it was after he wasn't here anymore, but he was he was um preparing a couple for marriage, and he just called us up one day and he was like, Hey, I've got this this couple, I'd like for y'all to meet with them. And uh they just came to see us one time. It was actually Mr. Hertz that teaches over here in Amanda. They came, that was the first couple we actually talked with about marriage, and that was years ago. Um, but that was nice, and it started something in us to to want to just give, you know, we have something special we know we do, that we're blessed with, you know, it's a gift really, and God is always wanting us to use our gifts. And so we you don't know how to do that a lot of times. How do you use your gifts, you know, to glorify Him? And and that was one little way, and it's just led to more things. And so we are involved in the mentoring couple, you know, engaged couples now. And that's that's really good for us.

SPEAKER_00 34:54

And it's easy, I mean, for like out in the work world, you know, there is negativity, you know, oh, you don't want to get married, you know. And for me, it's it I I won't er I don't let those comments slide to where it's I'm just like no, getting married is everything. I mean, it's a kind of a do-or-die team event, you know. It's like being a firefighter, you don't go into a fire by yourself. Why in the heck would you go through this whole world by yourself and you know, finding the right person and the partner and then working at it to be great at it requires communication and requires you to be on the same page and and to be able to and then once you have that, like what I have and what me and Dina have, we want other people to have it, so why wouldn't I talk about it? And it's very easy for me to, when someone has a negative comment about marriage, to go, mine's great, you know, or if jealousy is, you know, oh my wife did this, and I'm just like, send her flowers then. Why would I do that? I said, Why wouldn't you? You know, just just call up the florist. It doesn't c say, hey, send my wife some flowers. You know, it's easy stuff to do, and and and really to help blossom or help nurture our relationship, it it's not hard. You know, it just takes intent.

SPEAKER_01 36:18

Well, you have to get over yourself. You have to think about the other person. And a lot of times people don't do things because of their pro own pride, I feel like. And so we do we do think about each other first. It becomes easy for us now, I feel like. Yeah. And so it's easy to forget about that because we we've been doing it for so long. But whenever you give the flower example, it makes me think.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Just send flowers.

SPEAKER_01 36:47

Sometimes yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

You know. It's easy, yeah. But it's fun to be able to do that now and and know what because I want everybody to have what I have in a partner with Deanna. And the way I did that, or way we you know, the w the way I did that was if I was feeling jealous, I n it would it was always a a me thing. It was always a selfish thing. And it was an insecurity on my side. It was I never have questioned if Deanna loves me. And that's a good I mean, it it's there's so much con uh security in that, yeah. That, you know, even when you know I'm mad at her, it wasn't nothing to do with if I does she even love me anymore? I mean, it w it's never been a thought in my head. You know, so therefore it makes it a lot easier to go, okay, what's wrong? What am I doing? What did I do? Why am I taking this way? You know, because if I'm upset about it, that probably means there's some truth to it. So it means I probably should self-reflect just a little bit on the intent, maybe not the words. You know, because words are very easy to take however you want to. But the intent is the the the t the intent, you know. And Deanna's always wanted the best for me and to encourage me to be better and a better man of God, or just a better dad, or a better person. You know, even you know, it's sometimes like, oh, you know, we can't have both, and but you really can. So her intent was always to make me better. And I knew that. Well, I didn't know it at the time, but I knew I d the question of love was never there. So therefore, it makes you reflect the side of where'd it come from? Why is it coming? Why did she say it? Maybe it's because I probably need to quit doing something. Cause it's all I'll lose.

SPEAKER_02 39:01

Oh my goodness. Um, just hearing you talk about that, um, it like I it it is ringing true to me in a lot of different ways, but it's particularly um when you think about like your relationship with Jesus. And sometimes like God the Father needs to discipline us and it makes us angry. And again, it's like maybe I need to do a little self-reflection. Yeah. Because I know he loves me and he's sending me flowers.

SPEAKER_03 39:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

Um flowers.

SPEAKER_03 39:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:35

Oh my goodness. Um, and then I did have um two last things. Um the first one being, you know, you you reflected a little bit on like your own personal holiness and relationship with God, uh, but kind of coming back to the like you all as a unit. Um Al and Deanna walked in 27 years ago, walking back down the aisle, newly married. Um, what was your faith as a unit then? And how has it grown to the faith of Al and Deanna together? Um 27 years later.

SPEAKER_01 40:21

I've had a big faith journey, I feel like. Um when I was young, like I said, we met at youth group. This is a good time to bring that in, isn't it? So uh I went to public schools and I grew up in Fordsville, and it's kind of a rough area sometimes, you know. And um when I came to the youth group, I came with a friend because they were gonna come. It was their first time, and I didn't know anybody here at Whitesville. And I found uh a good community of people, like I had a good faith experience with that, really. I met Al, of course. But uh at first uh I was just open to the faith experience there. And I wouldn't say I didn't have any faith. I did have faith, but I had a lot of growing to do still. And I ended up going on a tech retreat and um I think it really changed the course of my life. I didn't realize it at the time, like wasn't like that day. It was like, I'm changed forever. But when I look back, it was that day, and then I changed forever. I just didn't really know that at the time. But I became very joy-filled and um really open to God's presence. And I don't know, I was just I was open. I guess that's the best way to describe it. And so I was coming back to this. This is where we saw each other. And so I was really growing in my faith at the time. And uh we talked about a lot of things. We went to some youth conferences, we talked about a lot of the material together. It like it gave us opportunity to talk through our faith. And he grew up in Catholic schools and he took a lot of the things that he knew for granted. Yeah, I feel like. Um, and and I didn't know a lot of the things that he did, you know, so I was like learning some things um along the journey. But I don't know, when we got married, I feel like we talked a lot about faith.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

We did a lot of road trips. We liked road trips, gave us a lot of times to talk. And that was one of the amazing things that I that I took for granted was going to Trinity and St. Mary's of how much I did know about my faith. I mean, it was just, you know, we had a, what was it, like a Bible trivia game? We had a Bible trivia game.

SPEAKER_01 42:52

I don't know when you're talking about, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 42:55

And you know, they would ask a question, and I would, I mean, it was for me, it was like common sense. Just like, yeah, duh. It's you know, Saint Joseph or, you know, uh Saint So-and-so, or that's you know, the Old Testament or New Testament, and Dan was just like, how do you know that? I'm just like, because Deanna is very intelligent, she's a very smart person, so I'm just like and I'm not. I mean, I'm more of a physical guy. You know, I'll do stuff, I can build stuff, but you know, I'm just like, well, mm, okay. So just that, you know, I took that for granted of what I did know about my faith and going through youth group and found, you know, talking to her and just growing together in that. And then when we first got married, uh, we got married by Father Cash. And one of the things I wasn't afraid of getting married. I was afraid of the responsibility of being responsible for Deanna's spiritual and my kids, you know, getting them to heaven. That's what I was scared about. You know, uh I was raised in White's. And my parents or grandparents have been married, my you know, just everybody you know, a divorce is not making it is not an option. You know. And then uh Father uh Cash was coming late to our wedding. And the first thing he did was come to me, kicks all my groomsmen out, and it's like confession time. You're going into the sacrament, clean slate, you're gonna have zero ways to get an annolment bug. I mean, he was very he was just like it's not happening, you know. So it was one of those, and then of course, you know, just going into that marriage with that clean slate, you know, and making that covenant with God and Deanna. And then from that point, I mean it kind of like started with that good foundation, even though I didn't recognize it then, you know, he really did kind of set the stone that you know, that cornerstone. And it wasn't going anywhere. And then from there, I mean, uh the way we just relied on each other. And now twenty-seven years later, I mean, the journey through our marriage and you know, the raising the kids focuses have changed. And then now our kids are older and we had to really just relearn each other. You know, it's a stage of life that we are empty nesters and you know, it's just like crap, you know, just cooking a meal in the same kitchen together.

SPEAKER_01 45:31

It is really different, yeah. So um getting married then and in the young years, you're really trying to form your children. I'm going back to the holiness, right? Like how God's been in our marriage, how we've changed. Um then the focus becomes on raising them and trying to trying to model for them. And so we we always went to mass. There were times when one of us didn't want to go to mass and the other one would always we're going, you know, early on. We don't really do that now, but early on it it was really easy to be like, do we really want to go to church today? You know, and that's why you have you just have to rely on each other and you have to be the one that picks the other one up sometimes when they're feeling weak, and that's part of the marriage. And sometimes somebody's weak for a long time, you know, and you just have to be strong, and then sometimes it's your turn. So um, yeah, it's usually never 50-50, but sometimes it is, I guess. And so a big part of our lives were just raising the kids and and trying to teach them and model them. And and um now, yeah, he's right. It's totally different for us now. Now that they're getting out, we're like, what do we do now? And you know, my that was my career, like I said before. So I I'm retired essentially, not completely, because we still have kids, but it's very different, like they don't need me the way they did. And so my role has changed, and and he's home a little bit more too. He was working a lot when they were in high school, and the last couple of years his schedule has been a little bit more free, and so we're together a lot now, more than we were. And uh he brought up the kitchen as a joke, but it's very true. We used to work in the kitchen well together, and then he cooked at the fire department a lot. I cooked at home a lot by myself because we were so busy with life, and now we're back in the kitchen together again, and we're getting in each other's way. And it's like, what are you doing that for? Are you really gonna use this pan? Or you know, yeah, I thought I would. Yeah, just things like that.

SPEAKER_00 47:40

Will you make this? Well, if I you know, don't make it that way. And it's just like if you wanted to make it, you should make it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 47:51

Yeah, so we're we're learning how to work together again, and we've gotten better already. So that is good. But it it's so interesting um to grow. And I would say with our faith now, we we aren't the best at praying together. We we've always gone to mass together, but our actual prayer life together has not been real strong. We have a lot of discussions about God together. Like I mean, um, faith is in our lives for sure. All of our decisions, moral decision decisions are always based on principles of you know, God's virtues and all of that. So it's very much a strong part of our life, but that's one of the things I was talking to him about this Lint. I said we need to let's make a prayer plan, a together prayer plan this Lint and try to strengthen that. So there's always room for growth. And that's one of our things I think we're gonna do this Lent is try to make the habit of the we do pray together, but not not as much as I would like. I feel like we're lacking and we could we could use some growth there, so our relationship with God can be better.

SPEAKER_00 49:07

And now it's gonna be that's one of our focuses.

SPEAKER_01 49:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Yeah. To do that. To be that.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Yeah, so much was focused on the kids.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:19

Yeah. You know. And the whole family unit, which is still a thing and it's good, but now it's us again.

SPEAKER_00 49:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

So it it does change.

SPEAKER_00 49:28

It was get them to church and get 'em. Make sure that their homework was done and run to all right at three o'clock when you get home, I need you to go pick up Nina at this volleyball, you know, at this practice, and Brendan has to be dropped off for his practice. Yeah. I'm gonna be here. Uh Devin's gonna be at your mom's, pick him up on your way back through on this one.

SPEAKER_01 49:49

And I know a lot of parents can relate to all of that because a lot of people are doing that in this community.

SPEAKER_03 49:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 49:55

And I do recall a time when like I would be listening to a sermon, and the priest would say, Just think of that one thing that's keeping you from God. That one thing, and I would always be like, My schedule. You know, like that's the most pressing thing right now. And sometimes we just busy ourselves way too much. And we let that like I felt like it was controlling me. My schedule was controlling me for a little while. A couple years of my life, actually.

SPEAKER_00 50:21

But it was also focusing for the kids.

SPEAKER_01 50:23

So it was almost like that's and that's what's hard because all the things are good.

SPEAKER_00 50:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

But even good things can be bad. You know, when you have too many of them that you're doing that you're not doing some of the things that should be priority. And so it's a good time to reflect when your schedule is what's controlling you. Because I know many people probably they feel that way. Like, think through those things. Are those the priorities?

SPEAKER_00 50:48

And when it's great.

SPEAKER_01 50:50

Can I change something little just to kind of get it back focused, you know?

SPEAKER_00 50:54

And in our community, I mean, we I mean, like Nina playing softball, Tina and Joey were always willing to cheek around with us.

SPEAKER_01 51:01

Yeah, that is the great thing about our community is that we do help each other out.

SPEAKER_00 51:05

You know, it takes a village. You know, you hear father say it a lot. It takes a village, and and it really does. And that was the one of the greatest things about Trinity and St. Mary's is we knew. We know our community. You know, you knew the people. And if Joey and Tina went, you know, hey, we we got Nina tonight, it wasn't even a question. It was, you know, just taken care of. You know, and you know, it was not just them, but again, they were a lot of times the coaches for her Nina softball. You know, but you know, and they had uh, you know, Abby was the same age and as uh Alana. Alana Brittany is Britney is the same age as Nina, and so it was just all the families are like you get close to them and you get to know them sitting on the bleachers. And you can trust you know what I mean? It's it's it's that big family union unit, and it's a village, and they're growing up with the same values, trying to teach their kids the same values.

SPEAKER_01 52:01

Yes, it is. We are fortunate to live here.

SPEAKER_02 52:04

Blessed very much. Um, yeah, this is this is this is so good. This is so beautiful. I'm like sitting back here beaming and watching y'all beat. This is this is so beautiful. I will say I wanted to circle back to y'all's plan for Lent. Okay, because that is so beautiful and comforting to hear that you like recognize that, hey, this is somewhere where we need to grow. And let's here's the steps we're gonna take to try. Um and that's one thing that is like that's one thing we don't talk about, how hard it is. Because it's we can be so comfortable in our own prayer space. It's like, okay, this is me and God in my room. This is like my closed door, this is me and God. And all of a sudden, when someone else is in that room, it's different. Yeah, how close you are, it's like what are we doing?

SPEAKER_00 52:55

Yeah, why why are you here?

SPEAKER_02 52:57

Yeah, this is like God, this is weird that he's in your room.

SPEAKER_01 53:00

Well, and sometimes even when you want to pray, it's almost like you're talking to each other instead of God sometimes, even. It there is an uncomfortableness about it. Yeah. Uh there really is, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:20

And it's an hour, but uh just over. I mean, she gets to go, you know, on a set time, and a lot of times when I get to go with her or choose to go, sometimes more than just get. But it is such a relaxing uh and what our families got from that. You know, I don't know all the blessings that our families got from that.

SPEAKER_03 53:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:44

You know, and it's a big deal. But yeah, trying to strengthen our, you know, our next relationship or strengthen our our faith life for us isn't it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:56

I do read a lot of books in in that time and then a little bit at home too. And I go through cycles, you know, where I do spiritual reading and and then I don't for a while. But we've always been able to share things, and that's good. Like our conversation helps our faith grow, I feel like. If I have some kind of experience, you know, God has revealed himself to me in in different ways, and then I come and I tell my family about it, you know. And sometimes they just sit and listen, I don't know what they're thinking about me, but like I'm gonna tell them anyway, because it's this is what God did for me today. And um, so we've always been able to have conversations about faith.

SPEAKER_00 54:36

Yeah. And I mean you you've always been real open to that. I've always had a little harder time with my prayer life or faith, but it's never been a question of faith.

SPEAKER_03 54:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:51

It's just I don't have I I've always had a struggle with that personal connection. And I don't know if it's just because I'm worldly more, you know, then you know, it's like my job was to take care of my family, and my family's getting taken care of by this. And I was never afraid to pray, I'm not afraid to talk about faith. And I but know that God's always taking care of me. But, you know, one of my weaknesses is, you know, that one-on-one sitting down, the quiet time, you know, with God and having that personal or that intimate uh relationship with. But Dan has been she has a great one. It's kind of if I get to be jealous over anything, it's kind of like, huh. On the other side is I would have to put in the work, which she does, you know, and that's been a great blessing for us, for me, to see that and it's kind of like if I want that, I know what I have to do.

SPEAKER_01 55:50

But well, I think that's one I think that's easier for women, honestly. Very much so. Yes. Because women are more in tune with our feelings and emotions, and we're relational. And so we are open to others. It's easier to be open to God when you're open to other people. And I think for men, that just comes harder. I don't know, I'm not a man, but in my in my thinking about the differences in men and women as I get older and older. Um, I feel like that's one of those things. Because you always talk about you feel really close to God whenever you're in the woods and you're hunting and you get there before Sun up. Sun up and then the world comes to life at daybreak, and like you just feel like you're so close to God.

SPEAKER_00 56:41

Yeah. And I've always, yeah, his presence and stuff, or you're doing stuff for somebody. That's where I find my great joy is just doing something for someone. You know, doing the work and having, you know, knowing the stuff.

SPEAKER_01 56:54

Yeah, you have a servant heart. I mean, that's why you love being a fireman and a paramedic, because you love to help others.

SPEAKER_00 57:02

Do stupid stuff. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:05

Yeah. I I I noticed too, just um, and it this is it is so beautiful to hear this that like not only are you complimentary in like personalities and strengths and weaknesses, but like your spirituality is complimentary too.

SPEAKER_03 57:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:21

Yes, it is.

SPEAKER_02 57:23

And it's and it's like that's a it's a very comp like at the core of that, it's very like common for to be very relational, right? To have that very intimate and always talking to God because it's like my mind is always running, it's spaghetti up there.

SPEAKER_03 57:38

If you throw in a meatball, it's uh God why it's an eatball.

SPEAKER_02 57:43

Um whereas with men it's very much like Ashton oriented. Yeah. Um and that that servant heart, uh, and you know, I I love hearing the guys around here too talk about being in a deer stand. And they're like, that's where I find God at you know where it is.

SPEAKER_00 57:58

Oh yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 57:59

But um it it's just there's a complementarity in our spirituality too.

unknown 58:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:05

Yes, there is. And nature, I mean, God is in nature. And um, a few years back, I don't know how long time flies, you know, but it's been a while, I guess. And somebody was talking about the sunsets and how God is making that for you, and you know, he's basically giving it's like writing a love letter, except he's painting a sunset for you. And that kind of resonated with me. And so since then, oftentimes when I see a beautiful sunset, I just say something out loud. Thank you, God, for this, for this moment. You made this just for me when I was gonna look at the sky at this time and see that beauty, you know, that was for me. And and so when you just say things out loud sometimes, it just helps it resonate and it reminds you of it. And then it becomes habit forming too, and you recognize it more. So I try to I try to be vocal about my thoughts. And a lot of my prayer life is in song too. I just start randomly singing something or I think something and then it's the lyrics to some song, you know, and and then I'm singing, and and I feel like that's just connecting with God when I do that. So we both do have a good spiritual life, and it's very different, I feel like. And you are right, it is complimentary. Well, but I I feel like we need to bring it together a little bit more. So that's yeah, that is a growth area for us, I think.

SPEAKER_00 59:33

And I mean, I think I mean, like in the deer stands, great, but like if I'm doing hard labor or I'm sore or I hurt, I I find appreciation in that. You know, in the suffering. It's just like I could, I can, you know, if I'm fasting or you know, it's just like, oh, you know, I'm so hungry. But it's just like it's for me, it's it's a spiritual tie that I can, you know. It's like thank you, God, for letting me be able to do this, you know. To work hard to to you know that you gave me this, whatever this burden is, even though there's joy in it. There's joy in that burden.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:19

So my final question for you all. Um what advice would you give people who are um you know, dating or looking to date, uh, people who are discerning getting engaged, people who are engaged getting ready to be married. What what would be some just like your key advice or words of wisdom?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:47

One of the first things I would like to say is we spend so much time focusing on the wedding as a woman. We think about the wedding day and trying to prepare for the wedding day. And I feel like there's nothing wrong with making a special wedding day because a marriage is beautiful, it's a celebration, it's the day you start your life together. That's a good thing. But sometimes we focus on that so much that we forget about everything else. And also as women, I can't speak from a man's point of view, but as women, we have this ideal well, it's almost perfection in our head of what it's gonna be like because we like romance movies and novels, and you know, we have we see whatever this fictional stuff on TV that we um turn into our story in our head. And so marriage really is beautiful, but it's messy. And so I think going into it, you have to, it is worth it. It is a gift. Don't be afraid of it, but also don't be fooled that it's just some picture perfect idea that you have in your head. So I think when you go into it, you have to be open to sacrifice and working with the person and just know that it's it's not perfect, but you're constantly just open to working together and you kind of navigate it together. So that would be kind of my advice on when you're thinking about it. It's hard to be realistic about it when you don't know. You just don't know because you haven't lived that experience yet. But it's not what's on the movies, and that's what we see, you know, a lot of times. So that's not real. That doesn't mean it's not good. It is, it's beautiful. And we we have had a great marriage, but it hasn't been a movie. No, you know. So that's one of the things is to just kind of be more realistic about your thoughts and and go in with the attitude of sacrifice, meaning I don't know, that can be taken a lot of ways, I guess. Meaning not putting yourself first. That's what I mean by sacrifice. Be willing to do for the other person. They should be doing that for you as well. So don't feel like you're getting cheated if you're just laying it all on the line for them. That's what you should do for each other.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:23

Men be men enough man enough to be vulnerable for the love. I mean, it's a friendship. And if you can't have a true conversation with them, you need to grow. You know, quit being basically holding back from your partner. If you don't hold back from her, everything else will be easy. And as men we tend to uh want to man up for like a you know, but you part of that being man up is talking to your partner. You know, because you've made a covenant. It's not a promise, it's a covenant with God and your wife. And the only way you're going to succeed is for you both to succeed and you to to help let her lead when you're feeling weak. But remember your role and take care of her.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:26

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:29

Um, yeah, the there's a quote from GK Sesterpin that it is coming to mind. Uh, I I think it's just a really beautiful like summary of this. And he says, the most extraordinary thing in the universe is an ordinary man, an ordinary woman, and they're ordinary children. That's the the most extraordinary movie. The most ordinary. Um, so yes, thank you all so so much for being here today. Uh, thank you for your vocation um and your commitment to love for one another that just absolutely spills out of you. Um this has been a great privilege.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:08

But thank you. Thank you. Thank you for inviting us. And I hope that somebody gets something out of it that will help them in their marriage.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:17

One person hears one thing that's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:20

That's right. Oh, yeah. Hopefully, God can use us. Yeah. So oh yeah. And He is.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:24

He definitely is. But yeah. Well, all right. Thanks for lunchtime. Everyone has a blessed day.