E29: Motherhood as a Path to Sainthood (with Sara Gipson)

How does a mother learn to trust God when she cannot protect her children from every struggle, mistake, or suffering?

How does thirty years of family life slowly reveal God’s presence in both the joys and the hidden sacrifices?

Join us for this month’s episode of Catholicism 101 as I sit down with my own mom, Sara Gipson, to reflect on motherhood, faith, and the quiet ways God forms us through the ordinary and the unexpected; drawing us little by little toward holiness.

Connect with Sara: Sara Gipson Group Brokered by eXp Realty, LLC

“Motherhood is the means towards sainthood—not only our own personal sanctity, but also that of our husband and children… The vocation of a mother is a slow process toward developing a virtuous life. The vices that encompass self-satisfaction are gradually stripped away through motherhood. This is not a quick process, and often women go through this spiritual growth kicking and screaming. Not in the sense of rejecting responsibilities, but in giving up our selfish nature and putting our faith in God first as Our Lady gave her fiat.” From Catholic Mom (Holy Cross Family Ministries)

Transcript

– Intro & Episode Overview

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi, friends. Welcome back to another episode of Catholicism 101, Forever Learning and Living the Faith. I know I say I'm excited every episode. Um, and I'm always especially excited when I have a guest, but I'm gonna be really biased, but also just matter of fact, this is my absolute favorite guest I have had on the podcast and probably ever will have. I have today my own mama with me, Sarah Gibson. So my mom, my sweet mom Sarah, she is first and for hello, first and foremost, a wife and a mother. Uh been married to Dwayne for, oh my goodness, 40 years this coming July. That's insane. I'm really excited. Um, she's got two daughters. My oldest sister, Katie, she's 30, and then sweet little me. I'm 27. Uh also, we cannot forget the third child, Lily. She's a golden retriever. And she's what, 12, 13? She'll be 14 this fall. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

But um, in addition to all of these beautiful, wonderful things, uh, my sweet mother is a real estate broker with EXP Realty, has her own um branch there in Paducah. Let's see. She is also a breast cancer survivor. She was diagnosed on her birthday in 2018 and has been perfectly healthy ever since.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:30

So we we praise and thank God not only for um the the trial that that was, but also the the beauty, most especially the beauty and the fruit that's come from that. Um yeah. What what am I missing, Mama?

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Oh goodness. Um I'm active at the local board of realtors as well as sit on the board of directors for the state Kentucky Realtor Association. I do a lot of volunteer work with both of those associations. Um, we're active in our parish at St. John the Evangelist in Paducah. And for recreation, we enjoy camping up at Kentucky Lake and boating. I

– Guest Introduction: Sara Gipson

SPEAKER_00 2:10

love to read and craft a little bit, and I like to spend a lot of time just just thinking and reading and pondering. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 2:21

Yeah, I definitely get my uh contemplative spirit for my mother, but I'm definitely I talk it out.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Yeah, we can both be silly.

SPEAKER_01 2:30

I'm definitely my mother's daughter. I look just like my dad, but boy, do I act just like my mama.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

A lot. That is true. We cannot deny that.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

So I have my mom here today because Sunday is Mother's Day. And we thought, you know what? It is May. It is not only the month of Mary. Um, and Mary teaches us so, so much about motherhood. But we wanted to talk about motherhood as a path to sainthood. And I thought, what better person to talk about that than the very mother who raised me and is still just still forming me very much so. So I pulled this quote uh from a website called Catholic Mom, and it's run by Holy Cross Family Ministries. And I asked her to kind of reflect on this too. It says, motherhood is the means toward sainthood, not only our own personal sanctity, but also that of our husband and children. The vocation of a mother is a slow process toward developing a virtuous life. The vices that encompass self-satisfaction are gradually stripped away through motherhood. This is not a quick process, and often women go through this spiritual growth kicking and screaming, not in the sense of rejecting responsibilities, but in giving up our selfish nature and putting our faith in God first, just as our lady gave her fiat. So thinking about this, um, what what has been your own experience of motherhood?

SPEAKER_00 4:05

Well, I think that your listeners need to know a little bit of background. Um, Duane and I were married about nine and a half years before we ever had our first child, and had literally, I had literally just given up. I I had prayed about it, felt like we tried very hard for two years and just were not conceiving. And Duane said that you just need to calm down. You're just getting stressed out over this, just calm down. And at some point, uh I came to this peaceful realization that life would be okay if we didn't have kids, that we had nieces and nephews, and we had friends, and we could live a very rich and full life, and whatever that meant. And then lo and behold, Katie came along. And then three years later, you came along. So motherhood to become a mother had been a very life lesson for me because I just longed, I longed to have a baby of our own. And it was very frustrating because it wasn't happening. And I just had gotten to the point where, okay, God, if this is not meant for us, you've got a better plan for us. I trust in you. So coming into motherhood after a very long season of longing to be a mother, of course I read every book. There were no such things as podcasts, and YouTube wasn't a thing. So books were all we had, and I read all the books. I took your dad to every class that

– Motherhood & Trusting God

SPEAKER_00 5:45

they gave at the hospital, CPR for infants, breastfeeding class, what to expect when you're at the hospital, you know, a tour of the hospital, the childbirth classes, all the things. And he went along with it just like a champ. So stepping into that role, I had to that was probably my first really big trust lesson that God gave me was just, you know, simmer down, sister. I've got this. Let me, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Yeah. Man. Um, and you know, something I think I just realized we forgot to mention is you're a convert.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Yes, I am. We were we were married four years when I remember, you know, kneeling at St. John's, and we went to both, you know, my Protestant church and to St. John's every weekend. We would go to Sunday school, then we would go to Mass or vice versa. And one Sunday we were kneeling, and I just remember feeling that, you know, this this just really feels like home. This feels right, and I wanted to learn more. And your dad, being a cradle Catholic, was not able to teach me much. So we, you know, Father Ben Luther was the priest at the time, and he was also a convert, so he did a great job. In fact, he made me repeat it. He said I started too late, so I had to go through uh instructions a year and a half. But yeah, I think that bringing a Protestant upbringing because my family was very devout. Um, you know, we were we were churchgoers, Bible readers, believers, my dad sang in gospel quartets. You know, we prayed. Uh it was just a very religious upbringing. So God was always part of my life, part of my prayer life.

SPEAKER_01 7:35

So that that faithful upbringing, um, a very religious upbringing, I think that's really important and kind of going off of that. When you think about these past 30 years of motherhood, what moments come to mind where your faith really just, you had no option other to strengthen it and really trust God?

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Oh, absolutely. And one of my lactation consultants told me that when the placenta comes out, the guilt goes in after childbirth. And I said, Well, I think I got a double dose because I felt guilty about everything that went wrong with you girls, um, you know, struggles that we have with breastfeeding, with, you know, just typical childhood things, illnesses, um, problems, you know, as you grew up in school and and just things that you experience when you're raising kids. And so every challenge became an opportunity to either turn towards God or away from God. And turning away from God was never an option. It was never an option because we're nothing without God. And so every challenge was an opportunity for me to reach out and ask for his intercession, ask for his help. You know, I know you want me to trust you, don't teach me this way. I don't want to be taught to trust this way. I want you to, you know, just benevolently guide me. And I don't want any of this pain or this sorrow, you know. So every time you're raising your kids, you just have those moments where you question, are you doing the right thing? When they make decisions that you don't agree with, it's easy to question yourself, you know, what did I not do? Those types of things. But I think at the end of the day,

– Hiddenness of Daily Family Life

SPEAKER_00 9:30

parents do the best that they can do with what they have to work with at the time. So I I felt like your dad and I were both raised in church and we both understood our role on this earth. We understood the assignment, as people like to say. We kept the kids alive, we didn't kill each other. Um we managed to raise two wonderfully accomplished, beautiful, faith-filled women that I still don't understand how that happened. You know, Dad and I were talking about this last night, and I said, I'm, you know, I'm got these questions she wants me to think about. And so we were talking about it, and I and he was just stumped by some of these questions. He said, Well, I'm glad I don't have to answer that. I said, Well, you know, you gotta help me come up with some stories here because you know, 30 years is a long time, and when you're in the thick of it, you think you'll never forget those things. But you do. You do, and time goes on and you have different experiences. So that was a long answer to that question.

SPEAKER_01 10:38

Hey, I love it. I love it. Um there there was something you said there about let him, let him, and this is something I've talked with you about a lot. Um, and this is something that I contemplate and ponder on a lot too of let them, let him, and all of this instead of let me, let me, you know. So I wanted to ask with let him, what was it like and what is it still like to watch your children um struggle or suffer?

SPEAKER_00 11:11

It's very hard. And I was once told that you're only as a mother or parent, you're only as happy as your unhappiest child. And that is so true. Um, whether you have one child or six children or whatever, you're only as happy as the unhappiest child because as parents, yes, we do live through our children. We experience those joys and those successes, those celebrations, those moments that we're so proud. But then we also have those moments that we're like, dang, what did I what can I learn from this? What did I not do that helped lead them down that path instead of a better better path or a better choice? So you know, trust is probably one of the biggest skills, if you will, that we as human beings can learn in our relationship with God because He wants us to be obedient and live the calling, the vocation. But at the same time, it takes so much trust. Right? So the Let Them book by Mel Robbins was a very profound book that I experienced this last year and really enjoyed it because it it just reframes how you think about so many things. So when you're thinking about kids, you want to think about okay, we can't do everything for them. We have to let them make their own decisions at a certain point, right? You want a little flashback story?

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Oh Lord, have at it.

SPEAKER_00 12:50

Okay, so when you were in I think you were in high school. You might have been it might have been sophomore year or maybe it was middle school, but you came to Dad Nine and you wanted to switch schools.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Oh, I yes, this is a very vivid memory.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

Yeah. And we were like, no, absolutely not. And a lot of parents were allowing their children to change schools. But our opinion was we're the parents, we are going to do what's best, and we choose for you to go there because we know it's where you need to be, even though you might not have liked it at the time. But I think you're glad now that you stayed.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Oh, a hundred percent.

unknown 13:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:31

Yeah, it it was sophomore year. McCracken County High School had been there for a year, and I was hearing how incredible their music and choral program was.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:40

And of course, that's what I wanted to do. And um, I still remember, and I bring this up to you all the time, of a time when you like let me make a decision that you knew probably wasn't the best for me, but it also wasn't terribly harmful, was when I decided to go to Western and study music education. And you kind of knew you had a bit of a gut feeling, a bit of a the knowing, as we would say, that that wasn't really the path I was supposed to be on. Um, but I always remember you telling me once I realized it that, you know, I kind of thought this all along, but I know I needed to let you figure it out for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 14:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Yep. And that has always been um, that's a moment that has stood out to me. And just as I think about, you know, wanting to be a mother too, that is something that has always stuck with me. And something that is a lesson I have really learned to appreciate too. Um, that there's a difference sometimes between letting your kids make those kinds of decisions, but also you not letting me move to McCracken

– Joys & Sacrifices of Motherhood

SPEAKER_01 14:51

was I I am very thankful.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

You're welcome. You are so welcome.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Um, so kind of still going off of like watching us struggle and suffer, you know, as a convert, you didn't really have that um upbringing with Mary, you know, you didn't really have that upbringing with Mary. And so, especially, you know, having been a convert for about five-ish years, by the time you became a mother, what was was your relationship with Mary like forming, or what was your relationship with Mary like at that time?

SPEAKER_00 15:29

I really wouldn't say that I had a relationship with Mary. Uh, coming from a very strong Protestant upbringing, um, I appreciated the role that Mary played. But at that time, I think I was very ignorant of, you know, the apparitions and her involvement in our world today and how she guides us and speaks to people and you know, all of the miracles. Um, I just was ignorant of that. So I didn't know what I was missing out on. Now I talk to her a lot because she's a mom and I know that sometimes um we as mothers have to call on other mothers to pray. And not only our blessed mother, but there have been many times in your life where I've called on a core group of other mothers, and I just send out my text and I say, Listen, uh, I need you guys to pray for Emily or Katie or whatever it is. This is what's going on, and they deliver. So as a mother, when you watch your children struggle, um, and when you are in a community like we were in at Sa at St. Mary school system, where it was a very close-knit community, and we had your friends, their mothers were my friends, and so they knew what was going on through their children. And same thing with Katie, you know, as we watched you guys play sports and we went to practices and games and tournaments, and we spent a lot of time with that core group of people. And so when you're raising your children, it's important to have that foundation not only of God and faith and church, but understanding the role that the Blessed Mother can play and in our lives as we raise our children and the community that you're with. So now Mary and I are BFFs and I'm still learning how to pray the rosary fruitfully, where it feels more like the meditative experience that I think it's supposed to be. And I I think that'll come, you know, with practice. There's still so much to learn. So much to learn. But as far as watching you guys struggle, it's very hard. Uh, it's hard not to step in because sometimes we've got to let you make those mistakes, but sometimes we're just gonna step in and say, no, you're not doing that, um, because of whatever reason, you know.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

Yeah. Hearing you um talk about the community, both at St. John and and Saint Mary. Um, so so many good, beautiful memories come to mind. A lot of difficult memories come to mind too. Um, but I want to know about some of yours. So, what what have been a few of your favorite moments um of family life looking back now that have just been especially meaningful?

SPEAKER_00 18:41

Oh my goodness. So um when we had Katie, um, I was working at a doctor's office and we both wanted me to stay home. We didn't really want put Katie in daycare. My mother um kept Katie for her, I guess the first seven months. And then it just got to the point where I said, Okay, God, you know what? I want to be home, and I know you're gonna help make this happen. And I told dad, Dwayne, I said, you know what? The worst thing that happens is I have to get another job. So I uh babysit a couple of other kids and um had that time at home with Katie and two other little girls, and it was a really good time. It was a bit of a culture shock coming from a an environment where I'm with adults all day to, you know, actively potty training and caring for children, changing diapers and things of that nature. And it was a bit of a culture shock, I will say. But what didn't kill you makes you stronger. So as we were at home, you know, we just we did a lot of things at home, just just hanging out, you know, just be being casual. And I think some things that I really enjoyed that I took for granted at the time were just watching you guys, you know, watching you interact with each other or play or or look at your toys or just whatever you were doing. I mean, I just watch you and observe you and just imagine what's going on in your mind. So that was always special. Um, but a little more recently, when COVID happened, and Katie was at her master's program at Bradley

– Suffering, Surrender & Trust

SPEAKER_00 20:16

and came home, and you were finishing your junior year at Western. And so here we are, set the scene. We're in the dining room at our round dining room table, all sitting there, the four of us, having a family meeting, because the two kids came home from college and thought that, you know, mom was the chief cook, bottle washer, did the laundry, did all the things, and we just had a little sit down come to Jesus where Mama said, I'm not the maid, I am not the cook. We are all adults here, and you can absolutely chip in and help out and plan and cook meals and do the laundry and help take care of the house. So that was a pretty um emotional meeting that we had. Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Oh, you called us your roommates. Yeah. You said we're all roommates here now. And I remember just jaw dropped.

SPEAKER_00 21:15

Yeah. Yeah, it was a big, uh, big perspective change for you guys because you were back home in your bedrooms that you grew up in. And what else, why would anything change, right? Well, yeah, it changes because I am no longer the only caregiver. We're all adults here working together. So roommates was probably the best term to use. But I also remember another meeting at that table where you were telling us, we were talking about our schedules and such, and you said, Yeah, I've got a really light load this fall, my senior year at Western. And uh your dad said, Yeah. And you're gonna take the real estate courses and get your real estate license. And I believe you you tell me what you remember about that, then I'll tell you what I remember.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

I was ticked. I was ticked. I thought y'all were joking. The moment I realized that y'all were being serious was upstairs in Katie's room. And you were asking me, all right, what's your plan when you graduate? Because this meeting at the dining table had maybe already happened. I don't know. Um, I guess it was after that because you were like, all right, what's plan A? And I was like, Well, plan A was work for the church, uh, but I don't get to do that. I'm not qualified to do that now. Thanks, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 22:30

Oh, well, we have to backtrack because you wanted to to leave Western and go to Steubenville. Yeah. You wanted to leave Western your sophomore year, go to Steubenville and get a degree in theology.

SPEAKER_01 22:40

Nine hours away, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

And I said, no, that's not happening.

unknown 22:43

No.

SPEAKER_00 22:44

You've got tuition paid at Western, you've got other scholarship money. Um, I felt like it was an immature decision for you to make at that time. I didn't feel like you were ready to make that decision at that time. And that's when we just said, no, that is not happening. You're gonna stay where you are, you're gonna finish the path that you're on, and if you need to change majors, change majors.

unknown 23:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:05

And and you did. You changed majors.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I went into communication studies and creative writing. But I remember just being absolutely ticked off. But then literally four-ish months later, you got that breast cancer diagnosis. And I just remember praying, like, thank you, Jesus. You know, this was a lesson. Like you said, I know I had to learn, but I didn't want you to teach me this way.

SPEAKER_00 23:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:30

But going back to the real estate thing, when I realized it, um, you said, What's plan A? I said, work for the church, but can't do that. Thanks, by the way, because I was still bitter. And then you said, What's plan B? And I was like, Well, I don't really have plan B, but plan C is cosmetology school. I don't remember thinking I'm gonna be like Brandon. And you said, Well, your new plan B is real estate. You are taking classes, and I broke down.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

Oh, yeah, you pitched a fit like a tantrum, like a little toddler.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

It is pitiful. But we let you, you got it out of your system and tell the rest of the story.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

And then um I st I took those classes fall semester of senior year, and I remember kind of hating the classes, but um that December I came home and actually, was that the the semester that I had to do my internship?

SPEAKER_00 24:26

Well, you obviously took the licensing exam before and passed it.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Yeah. Oh goodness, yeah. I pretty much spent all of my time at the office as soon as I got home, but took that real estate licensing exam, passed first try, walked into your office as soon as I got back from the test and tried to trick you that I didn't pass. Yeah. Uh, and then we both just happy danced.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

And you made a little money.

unknown 24:50

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

You made a little money, you got the satisfaction of serving people.

unknown 24:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

And you you saw what draws me to real estate.

unknown 24:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

Right. Um, because it is a service, it's a wonderful service that God lets me serve other people in really emotional, stressful times of their lives. But that all resulted from that come to Jesus meeting at the table. That, you know, your dad was like, you are taking those courses, and we are going to verify that you will be able to graduate college and support yourself financially.

unknown 25:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:20

And that was what our goal was for you girls. We wanted you to be able to land on your feet, be able to support yourselves in a manner that you could actually live and not struggle, but also enjoy what you do. So that was another favorite memory. Uh, of course, watching you girls play sports. I loved that um a lot. Even when you were crocheting on the bench at soccer for senior year, that was not so exciting. I got an award. Yeah, okay. All right. Um I think, you know, just spending time um together, uh, you know, camping at Hillman Ferry was always a lot of fun. Um, having your friends over and swim parties and all the things that we did at the house and the slumber parties and the little fashion shows and um summers with McKenzie and William. Oh my gosh, we had so much or I enjoyed watching you guys. I didn't really participate in the fun, but I enjoyed watching you guys. And then of course we, you know, volunteered at vacation Bible school, and that was always a good time too. So those are a lot of good memories.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Yeah, this is and and as we think about just the past years um and growing up and all of these wonderful, wonderful memories. I kind of want to shift the focus again back to faith.

– Growth in Holiness Through Motherhood

SPEAKER_01 26:40

And when you think about our family's journey of faith, you know, I know I have my own perspective. I know we each have our own perspective. Um, but I want to know what your perspective as a mother trying to lead us spiritually, right? Like that quote says, um, trying to lead us spiritually. How have you seen each of us grow? And where have you seen God at work in ways that you didn't expect?

SPEAKER_00 27:06

Well, I sit here very humble because dad and I are amazed at how good you guys have turned out. And we look at each other often and when we marvel on what you girls have accomplished, but especially how devout you are in your faith. And what you've accomplished, you know, here at the church in in doing this work, it's very fulfilling. And you're so good at it, you're so talented with it. And then Katie has her own set of strengths where she is such a leader and an organizer, and just uh she's she's the boss, you know. Um, and I let her, I let her be the boss, but she's got so many skills, and as we watch you guys walk through every phase of your life, short life as it is so far, and we look at each other and we just like, how did this happen? What did we do that other parents didn't do and their kids went down different paths? And we were talking about this last night, actually. And I said, What do you think we did different? And Dwayne said, I think, you know, the big thing is we kept him in church. He said, All of our friends went to church, we had a good church group, which we did, and that's part of a Catholic high school. You know, when you guys had mass at school, we'd come to Mass at school, at least I would, when dad wasn't working in the fields. And all of our friends, it was not something that you just talked about on Sunday, it was something that was talked about every day. You know, you talked about God, you talked about Mary, about your faith and right from wrong, and so that was uh one thing that we definitely did right. I think that uh when you guys were at St. John Elementary and um it was just a very small Catholic school. How many kids were in your class?

SPEAKER_01 29:13

The biggest class in the school was nine kids.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Nine kids. So every family took a week or two, actually probably took more than two weeks, to clean the school. And so um Ella and Chris and I, uh, Dwayne's sister and Mackenzie and Williams' parents, we would all take the same weeks. So we would knock it out in half the time. Well, a lot of times it was Chris and I because Ella was working late and Dwayne was working late, or it'd be just me and Chris, and you know, dad would come when he could, but we always had the kids there with us. And you guys would go in a school room and you would play school. Sometimes we'd have you help us, but you saw us doing that, and you saw us giving back, you know, all of the PTO meetings that we did and we ran and we the fundraising that we did for both schools, you saw us involved. And so what I feel like we did, maybe different than some parents, is that we we modeled our faith with walking feet. We didn't just pray, we walked the walk. And so if I was telling a young family today, I think one of the biggest things that you can do for your family is understand it does takes take a village.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Yeah, every time we have a baptism here at Mass, uh that's my favorite thing, Father Brian always says, is we know it takes a village whenever we are all renewing our baptismal promises. And so I am just especially thankful for the village that you all put us in, that you raised us in, um, and just took care of us in, especially whenever um times were tough and we really had to lean on our village.

SPEAKER_00 30:56

So when you reflect back on, I don't know, would you say middle school or high school or college was the most challenging? Because you had some, you had some pretty intense uh experiences.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

Oh yeah. Quite a few come to mind. I think about sixth grade being kind of rough. Um I remember eighth grade in particular when um I came to you, I was like, Mom, I think I got ADHD. And you were like, Well, yeah, we knew that. You're welcome. Have you ever met me and me and your Aunt Penny? Um so that's that that's turned into something that's also kind of fun at the same time. I've kind of learned with that a new perspective. But I remember whenever um we finally decided to go like get it checked out, right? And um this was the end of my eighth grade year, maybe summer before freshman year, and it was Dr. Cecil. I did the ADD assessment and he looked up at me and he was like, Well, you might have ADD or ADHD. We can't really put you on the medicine for it though, because you have

– Theology of Motherhood & Sainthood

SPEAKER_01 32:10

PAD, panic anxiety disorder. And if we were to put you on ADHD medicine, all you would think about would make you panic.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

Yeah. Yeah, we went through some things. Um, and every moment, every challenge um was always dealt with in a prayerful moment. I can remember as we were preparing you to go to college, I knew that it was gonna be tough and I just felt like I needed to give you some tools. I needed to put some tools in your toolbox to take with you. And so we talked with some professionals and got some really good um emotional handling tools, you might say, to prepare you. Um but I can also remember giving you some really good advice, and I thought it was good advice, but you might not have, but I can remember, you know, you would call and it would be, you know, my roommates are terrible and blah blah blah, and the girls here are so mean and you know, they're so hateful and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And at that point, I would listen to you and then I would say, Well, you know, have you considered what's going on in their world? Why are why do you think they're acting like that? Do you think maybe they've got some challenges going on? Have you ever thought about that? You know, it's not about you. It's it's not about you. It's always about the other person, what's going on in their world, right?

SPEAKER_01 33:40

Oh yeah. I think that was definitely one of your favorite ones to hit me with. Uh probably still is. And I I am, yeah, I do still try to think about that one.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

And then another key piece of advice that I'll use on you from time to time is when you're having a challenge, I'll just say, Well, you know, if you talk to a good friend and they were going through this, what would you what would your advice be to them? And usually that stops you long enough to understand that you can analyze what's going on and you can address it yourself. So, you know, all those things, I feel like I was put on this earth specifically to be yours and Katie's mother to help you grow into spiritual beings that God designed you to be. Um and I hope that he lets me continue to walk and enjoy as you guys step more and more into to whatever vocations he has for you. Um, you know, at one point I thought you were probably gonna be a religious sister. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I really thought that. And God, that was not the plan.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

So yeah, I mean, that was that was something that I really contemplated for a long time. Um, but you know, realized more and more, especially the past few years, that um your motherhood of me and Katie and the the way that you are a wife to dad, um, really was something that I realized, you know, I'm not only a little Sarah in personality and in thought process, but I'm a little Sarah in the way I serve. And I think that is quite literally written into my DNA of being a wife and a mother. And so that was something I tried to be more intentional about. So um, yeah, but just earn discerning was a wild ride. It was beautiful. Um, and I will say I was glad that they told me no. Really a mother, uh, a moment of peace. Um, and so the last thing I kind of want to ask you, it's two parts, is looking back on these 30 years of motherhood. If you could go back and talk to yourself and dad in those very early years, both of marriage and parenting, you know, those those nine, there's a gap of about nine years there, right? What would you say to 21, 22 year old, Duane and Sarah?

SPEAKER_00 36:19

Well, I think that God gave us children at the right time. Uh we weren't ready. We weren't ready to settle down and be the parents that we needed to be. Uh we we needed to kind of get ourselves, our house in order, so to speak. But looking back, if if I were gonna say anything to them, it would be you're on the right track. Don't second guess it. Don't be afraid afraid to be strict. You're not their friends, you're their parents. Love them, role model love for each other, demonstrate your love for God. Um keep them in church, keep them around people that live the type of life that you aspire to live and support them in the things that are good for them and redirect them in the things that are not so good for them and challenge the thoughts when when they have thoughts that are different, challenge them and help them to come to conclusions on their own of what is truly best for them. Letting them to some degree make make the mistakes they need to make. But also you have to let yourself let go. And as parents, that's probably one of the hardest things to do is to learn to let go. And that happens over time, it happens very slowly and very gradually, and then one day you wake up and you're like, Oh, wow. We we've raised two two adults.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

Yeah, I think y'all have done a pretty good job. And then the last the very last thing I wanted to ask you was even before becoming parents, um, if you could go back to those years of longing for children, what do you think God was already doing in you all during that time that you couldn't really see yet?

SPEAKER_00 38:21

He knew that I was a control freak, so to speak. Um, I like to be large and in charge. If something's gonna be done, I want to make sure it gets done. Um and it sounds to me like I'm describing Katie right now, because that is so true. But I think he knew that he had to teach me a lesson and he had to do it in his loving way. Um and was it painful? Yeah, but that's okay. You know, it's it was a good lesson to learn that things happen in his time

– Marriage, Family & Formation of Children

SPEAKER_00 38:55

and to always trust in him. And without that lesson, we may have all turned out very differently. So I'm so thankful. So thankful for that. I'm so thankful to my parents for loving me enough to make sure that I was in church on a regular basis and that they showed me how a Christian family lives and prays together and worships together and talks about their faith together. And I feel like that they are vo both very proud of Dwayne and I, but also of the two children that we've raised. And that makes me very proud, makes me very happy and proud to know that we've done a good job. I love you, Mama. Oh, I love you too. I'm so proud of you. And I don't know if anybody's gonna listen to this podcast or not, but I've so enjoyed spending time with you and sharing some thoughts and feelings with you and um memories I hope you will always cherish.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. I've gotten emotional a couple of times, as you can see. Very what one thing um I will say, just as you're as your youngest, as your little baby, um, is that I am continually amazed at the the way that you have modeled the Lord's love for me. You know, just as kind of you were talking about the Lord needed to teach you a lesson and he had to do it in a way that like you would receive and understand, right? To to the language of your own heart. And what that immediately makes me think of is, you know, we we all know I have a very tender heart, right? I mean, I like to say, I like to say that whenever the Lord decided to divide his heart among all of his people, he just wanted to give me a really extra tender one. Um and thinking about the way that you have parented me and to this day still do, the way that you have figured out how to um take my intense emotions and turn them into something that is a teaching moment, but in a way that I can receive it and still feel loved instead of like I'm too much. Because that's definitely um a way that the Lord's loved me too. And like, hey, I made you this way on purpose, and it is a gift even when it feels like a curse.

SPEAKER_00 41:35

Oh, absolutely. He doesn't make mistakes, uh, everything is done on purpose intentionally. We may never fully understand why, but that's why we trust, and we are thankful.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Amen. Man. Well, Mama, you know what I'm really excited for? And this is gonna sound really morbid, but I am very excited, and my OCIA people hear me say this all the time. I am very excited for the end of time. Because that is when we will get to see just the full timeline of humanity and how the Lord worked everything for his good. We will see people at the core of who they are as made in the image and likeness of God and what all that entails, and how all of the little things that we have done, how they affect others, and how we're all connected. Um, and so I have two very, very exciting things that I look forward to in that is number one, seeing like your life, like your lifetime and the things that both Gran and Papa Buddy did raising you all, and how you know that's emulated in the way that you've raised us. But most especially, I'm excited to fully see you at your core in a way that's just like not possible on this earth. And I'm really excited to see how much we twin.

SPEAKER_00 43:02

Well, there is that. We probably are very, very, very much twins at that.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

Well, mama, thank you so much for driving up here and spending this day with me and um just sharing with us how this this beautiful vocation of motherhood has really really catapulted you on the path to sainthood.

SPEAKER_00 43:27

Well, I don't know about that, but I do know that I'm so grateful for the opportunity to be your all's mother, to to share in your life and to be a wife to Duane and to live in obedience to his calling um is so fulfilling that for anybody out there that struggle to to understand what their purpose might be or their vocation or their calling might be, all they have to know is that we were born to love him

– Final Reflections & Takeaways

SPEAKER_00 44:00

and to know him and to worship him. And just look at everybody through the eyes of love because they're all going through their own thing. And it's not us up to us to judge them. It's just up to us to love 'em and to be Jesus to everybody we meet.

SPEAKER_01 44:16

I think those are beautiful words of motherly wisdom to close on. So thank you again, Mama. Love you very much.

SPEAKER_00 44:23

I love you too.

SPEAKER_01 44:24

Until next time, I hope you all have a very blessed day.